endquestionmark:

ohmister:

No, BBC Sherlock’s Watson is his FLATMATE. BBC Sherlock’s Watson does those things because he’s his friend, because he loves him. He doesn’t do them because he HAS to, and he’s not in a “caretaking” position. Even if it could be argued (not well, but it could be) that he is, he takes it WILLINGLY.

Elementary’s Watson is put in that role. She is HIRED to actually, LITERALLY be his caretaker. Her JOB is to keep him sober, which means caring for and about and dealing with his mental and emotional state. She doesn’t do it because she’s his friend, or because she cares. She does it because she’s forced to — she’s being paid to.

Basically put, Elementary’s Watson is put in an actual, LITERAL caregiving role to Holmes. She is literally responsible for his well-being in a major way. And doing this — taking a male character who is not in a caretaking role, who does things for his friend because he cares about him, who didn’t go into the situation thinking he would do those things, who just started living with this guy and thought he was brilliant and made a friend and does those things out of love… taking that and then changing him to a female character who does these things out of obligation, who is not a friend— that’s really gross.

There are hugely different dynamics between two men when one is in a caregiver role, also, and when a woman is in a caregiver role towards a man. I object, STRONGLY, to the idea of taking an independent male character who is a friend and turning him into a female character in a caregiver role whose only purpose by her introduction is to take care of the main male character.

Really if you can’t see that the implications of “male caregiver” versus “female caregiver” are wildly, vastly different, there’s nothing I can do for you.

P.S. As my girlfriend just pointed out over my shoulder— if BBC’s Watson is a caregiver, he is a REALLY SHITTY ONE, given that time (..okay, more than one time) when he ditched on a “danger night” to go on a date, the multiple times he’s just left in a huff when Sherlock was being depressive or “too much to handle” and so on. Really. If he were a caregiver he’d be fired.

i see your point regarding the “obligation” but on the other hand it was her choice (presumably?  unless they do something really odd in the show; not leaving that option out yet) to take the job and/or go into the caretaking field.

i also see your point about the change in dynamics, but also based on the trailers, we’ve seen that joan really isn’t going to take any shit, just based on how she completely ignores him in favor of giving him the drug test and doing her job, the way she reacts when he treats her like a maid (we didn’t see the rest of that scene, but i don’t really think based on the other parts we’ve seen she’d take that shit), and the way she calls him out on thinking that he’s a lost cause, as well as the way she demands to be let in on the plan and, seemingly, gets it.

so in general i really do understand what you’re talking about, but in this case i think the dynamic isn’t going to be as grossly sexist as your posts indicate based simply on the interactions we’ve seen from the trailer.  i personally was worried about the way they would handle a female watson (based on previous incarnations of watson - stupid watson, jam watson, to quote kate beaton) but based on what we’ve seen i am no longer so worried.

(and based simply on that scene in hound of the baskervilles, let alone the other stuff he’s pulled, yes, BBC watson is a shitty caretaker.  it was more the general role that i was looking at, especially the way it’s treated in scandal in belgravia by mycroft.)

It’s her choice, presumably, yes (though she could have been pressured, probably had few options, etc. — in the U.S. you would not see a surgeon willingly take a job like that if only because the pay would be like, one sixteenth or less of what she was making), but that doesn’t really matter in the context of this discussion? I really couldn’t care less if it was her choice or not — what matters is that this is the role CBS chose to give her and how they chose to portray her. They can try to justify it however they like since they’re the ones telling the story, but it doesn’t change the seriously awful implications that their portrayal has.

I’ll agree that in some ways, she doesn’t seem like she’ll just lie back and let Sherlock be an ass to her, but at the same time… mostly it’s not about that. It’s about them having Sherlock mistake her for the maid in the first place. It’s about her saying he could introduce her as a “friend, relative or colleague” (paraphrased as I can’t get to the video right now for an exact quote, sorry if it’s a bit off) and them having him introduce her as his valet. It’s about the fact that regardless of the way she reacts to individual instances of this kind of sexism, a) she still sticks around and essentially takes it, b) other characters still treat her in a grossly sexist way and it is not really punished or anything in the text, and c) they still write those instances, which reinforce her servile position with regards to Holmes.

I also find it just… both troubling and disturbing that they chose to change SO MUCH of the dynamic between Sherlock and Watson, presumably solely because Watson is a woman now and they felt they “needed” to. Watson isn’t an army doctor because “women can’t be in the military” or “she’d be too intimidating to men in the audience.” Watson is a disgraced surgeon instead of a decorated veteran. Watson is paid to be Holmes’s caretaker and is thus forced to go with him on his cases, not his flatmate and friend and a willing participant. Watson is treated with disdain and sexism by Holmes, not as a trusted and respected acquaintance and later friend. When you consider that the only change they made prior to deciding these things was that Watson is a woman… it’s really freaking gross, and incredibly sexist.

It’s basically a lot of old sexist memes shoved together — women can’t be in the military, women in positions of high prestige inevitably screw up, woman characters shouldn’t have positions of power/prestige, a woman would never choose to be a detective or assist a detective, a woman wouldn’t willingly room with a man, a man and a woman cannot be friends, a woman must simply expect and deal with sexism from men, woman characters must be in servile positions to men, woman characters cannot have more prestigious or powerful positions than men… etc., etc.

I’m extremely worried, personally. Not about Joan herself, but about the way she’ll be written and portrayed, and the way she’ll be treated not just by the male characters of the show such as Sherlock but also by the narrative in general. I’m also extremely distressed and dismayed by the fact that the only reason CBS made Watson a woman in the first place was so they could hook her and Holmes up without it being “too gay”.

(Yeah, I understand what you mean, but even if you accept that Watson is in a caretaker role, again.. he takes it willingly, even if he does suck at it. Which is to say, he is a caretaker to Holmes because he cares about him and is his friend. He also does not begin with that role. It comes later, as his relationship with Sherlock develops. Joan is not given that luxury.)

(Source: fromthemargintothecenter)

endquestionmark:

ohmister:

This is hilarious.

Yes, okay, fine, if thinking a sexist show that has a trailer full of sexist bullshit and sexist implications and sexist writing is being “pressed” just because I am also a fan of the BBC’s Sherlock, then I am kind of proud of being “pressed.”

I’m embarrassed by people who act like this. And by people who act like Elementary is going to be some wonderful show despite even their trailer being chock full o’ sexism nobody seems willing to talk seriously about.

P.S. Oh yeah, also it’s a fucking glaring rip-off of an existing show which also makes it shit. But really that’s among the least of my objections to this crap. 

#SEXISM #ELEMENTARY #SHERLOCK #ELEMENTARY IS SEXIST GARBAGE #PERIOD #THEY MADE WATSON #WHO IS A WOMAN #LITERALLY HIS CARETAKER #FFS #LITERALLY

are you telling me that BBC sherlock’s watson isn’t his caretaker

he’s the one who tells sherlock how to respond in public situations, who follows him around with a gun to protect him, who takes away his cigarettes, who sticks around when it’s a “danger night”, who plays cluedo with him to keep him happy - tell me how that’s different

No, BBC Sherlock’s Watson is his FLATMATE. BBC Sherlock’s Watson does those things because he’s his friend, because he loves him. He doesn’t do them because he HAS to, and he’s not in a “caretaking” position. Even if it could be argued (not well, but it could be) that he is, he takes it WILLINGLY.

Elementary’s Watson is put in that role. She is HIRED to actually, LITERALLY be his caretaker. Her JOB is to keep him sober, which means caring for and about and dealing with his mental and emotional state. She doesn’t do it because she’s his friend, or because she cares. She does it because she’s forced to — she’s being paid to.

Basically put, Elementary’s Watson is put in an actual, LITERAL caregiving role to Holmes. She is literally responsible for his well-being in a major way. And doing this — taking a male character who is not in a caretaking role, who does things for his friend because he cares about him, who didn’t go into the situation thinking he would do those things, who just started living with this guy and thought he was brilliant and made a friend and does those things out of love… taking that and then changing him to a female character who does these things out of obligation, who is not a friend— that’s really gross.

There are hugely different dynamics between two men when one is in a caregiver role, also, and when a woman is in a caregiver role towards a man. I object, STRONGLY, to the idea of taking an independent male character who is a friend and turning him into a female character in a caregiver role whose only purpose by her introduction is to take care of the main male character.

Really if you can’t see that the implications of “male caregiver” versus “female caregiver” are wildly, vastly different, there’s nothing I can do for you.

P.S. As my girlfriend just pointed out over my shoulder— if BBC’s Watson is a caregiver, he is a REALLY SHITTY ONE, given that time (..okay, more than one time) when he ditched on a “danger night” to go on a date, the multiple times he’s just left in a huff when Sherlock was being depressive or “too much to handle” and so on. Really. If he were a caregiver he’d be fired.

(Source: fromthemargintothecenter)

gyzym:

so, once upon a few years ago, when i was naught but a wee bb sherlock holmes enthusiast, there was this place called the shkinkmeme, and i wiled away many an hour there! this, dear reader, was before the Rise of Mofftiss, so we were forced to content ourselves with fic and discussion based on the 2009 rdj/jude movie, the granada series, that film where gareth david-lloyd wears ill-fitting trousers and fights some sort of dinosaur, the literally hundreds of other available adaptations (watch the russian holmes series, it’s ace), the actual ACD canon, and the occasional discussion of duck penises (don’t google it, trust me). it was a golden age! not a particularly…pure…age, but a golden one nonetheless! fic was written! art was drawn! gif parties were had! all was wonderful! 

BUT THEN, dear reader, things took a turn for the wank, for news was released that there was a new holmes adaptation on the horizon. and this new holmes adaptation, they said, was to be a modern version, set in present-day london. oh, how the shit did hit the fan! oh, how our sense of security was torn asunder! “a modern setting will never work!” people said. “this is an affront to the canon!” people said. “i’m appalled they’re even making this!” people said. “house is not the same thing!” people said. on and on the wank raged, until that modern adaptation was released; shortly after that, said modern adaptation had a massive fandom all its own, drawing countless people into the fantastic world of holmes and its staggering assortment of variations. 

do i really even need to say that that modern adaptation was sherlock? sherlock, which is much beloved and possessed of many baftas, sherlock, which has spawned so much brilliant fic, sherlock, which is currently the favored holmes adaptation ‘round these parts? do i really even need to make that point? 

Read More

And yet, the thing is, I would have been more or less okay with this (still a ripoff, but so is all of American television) so whatever), but it’s so frigging sexist and gross that I can’t even. I mean, this is not, for me, an issue of “oh eww another Holmes adaptation I bet it’ll suck,” but more, “this show is extremely sexist and that disgusts me and I don’t want it on television.”

zoedangerawesome:

SHERLOCK IS NOT A GAY POSITIVE SHOW

SHERLOCK IS NOT A GAY POSITIVE SHOW

SHERLOCK IS NOT A GAY POSITIVE SHOW

The closest thing in Sherlock to queer representation was Irene Alder who said she was gay and then fell in love with Sherlock. (make of that what you will.)

The whole show is about two heterosexual men. And one of those men, Watson, spends about half an hour each episode telling everyone ever that he and Sherlock are not a couple.

That is not gay representation.

I repeat: that is not gay representation.

And fuck you if you think that is representation.

A show having a large slash fandom does not count as representation.

I’m sure there a many legitimate criticisms of Elementary, but accusing the show of being homophobic because Watson is played a women is not one of them.

I cannot say this enough times: Sherlock is not a gay positive show.

Sherlock is not a progressive show in terms of representation. It is about two white cis heterosexual men solving crimes.

The fact that Elementary has a women of color as a main character pretty much already makes it more progressive than Sherlock. 

And furthermore if you watch Elementary you are under no obligation to ship Sherlock/Watson. I’m sure that there will be at least one other dude you can find. 

And listen, Sherlock is a good show and Elementary existing  is not gonna change that. You are under no obligation to watch it. You are under no obligation to even acknowledge it.

I agree that BBC Sherlock is not a gay positive show.

HOWEVER, since probably 95+% of the reason they made John into Joan for Elementary was so they could have ~sexual tension~ and probably actual sex between her and Sherlock without it being omggay? That’s homophobic.

Also, I wouldn’t consider it “progressive” to cast a woman in the role and then have her character be treated and portrayed in an incredibly sexist manner as Joan has been shown to be in the trailer, either.

Anonymous asked: Do you not understand that what has been presented in the trailer is not indicative of the whole show? Watson as a disgraced surgeon and caretaker is a STARTING POINT, much like Watson being a shut-in with PTSD. It's not the sum of their parts. Elementary's trailer is hinting/TELLING that Watson wants, deserves, and eventually takes more. Whether or not the show delivers on that is really not up for you to declare as it hasn't actually aired yet.

Can you.. read? Because I already addressed this point. To repost:

It doesn’t matter when Holmes met Watson. What matters is that this is how CBS decided to introduce us to this show and to these characters, and it speaks volumes for how they see both.

The trailer was incredibly, incredibly sexist, from start to finish and in many, many ways. You don’t “start” sexist and you don’t “finish” sexist, period.

imaginearianne:

Real people have flaws and failures. It fucking happens. We come in all sorts —strong, successful, weak, simpering, funny, terrible, assertive, smart, stupid and every other possible adjective— and it is more than okay for media to portray something other than a perfect wonder woman.

The problem comes not from women being shown as fallible, but from women only being portrayed as one-dimensional and only important in terms of their relations to men.

In fact, acting as if any woman who isn’t perfect is somehow not okay suggests that while there are thousands of compelling stories with imperfect men, a woman is only worth telling a story about if she has no flaws.

I only bring this up because I am sick of people talking about how Joan Watson is somehow a bad female character —despite knowing next to nothing about her seeing as how the show has not even aired yet— because we see that she had a failure as a surgeon. She is quite literally the support to a guy who is a recovering drug addict. They both have made mistakes, and yet hers is the one that is totally unacceptable for the character and supposedly a commentary on how women are stupid? Are you even listening to yourselves?

I’m not defending the show. I haven’t seen it yet, so I don’t know what it’s going to be like any more than you. It could very well be that it’s terrible and that Joan is a horrific character, but we still don’t know that yet. All we know is that she fucked up once. Since when are female characters not allowed to fuck up, too?

Female characters are allowed to have any personality, flaws, etc. and are definitely allowed to make mistakes.

However, as I explained here, Joan Watson’s portrayal is incredibly sexist for a variety of reasons. IMO there is basically no arguing this.

Anonymous asked: Can you expand on the sexism present in the two Elementary trailers available, please?

Please see here and here.

To be more verbose — though I can’t promise more sensible, as it’s going on 9am here and I have not slept a wink:

The writers took a character who is a capable, intelligent, helpful and independent former army doctor who was let go from the military due to an injury which was in no way his fault, who is treated with respect by Sherlock Holmes and who is nearly always useful if not instrumental on his cases.

They turned that into a character who is, thus far, portrayed as a screw-up who is not military (presumably because that would have made her ~intimidating or some shit), but who was a surgeon until she accidentally killed someone (seeing the difference here between “lost job due to something that was not his fault and which was honorable” versus “lost job and left in disgrace after killing someone in a way that was, at least, enough her fault that she lost her job over it, which was dishonorable and terrible”) and who now works as a “companion” for recovering addicts. This puts her squarely into the role of Holmes’s caretaker — which was in no way Watson’s role in the original stories. This is enforced in the pilot by the multiple times when he refers to her as being in a servile position to him — first he “mistakes” her for the maid after she explains her job to him, and next his choice of a way to introduce her to the police is as his “personal valet.” He condescends to her and treats her like dog-shit throughout, and she is written as not only more or less accepting this, but following him around continuously and praising him. She is not shown contributing anything or being helpful.

Basically, the trailers make it clear that Joan Watson will not be treated with respect and will have what prestige and respectfulness her ACD predecessor possessed stripped from her before the show has even begun. It’s blatantly sexist.

ETA: And before anyone says that it’s just because Holmes treats people that way, or that he acts somewhat like that in the BBC version, etc., consider the following:

1- It doesn’t matter when Holmes met Watson. What matters is that this is how CBS decided to introduce us to this show and to these characters, and it speaks volumes for how they see both.

2- I am not comparing this to the BBC version. Also, in the BBC version, Watson is a man; Treating a man in this manner has very, very different implications than treating a woman that way.

3- It’s still sexist.

Okay? :) 

fromthemargintothecenter:

I’m serious.  I feel like this needs to be documented.  Because what these ppl are writing as their complaints is literally written gold.  for example -

this looks.. AWFUL. Im sorry.. but . its so.. American. Ugh. 
Also with Watson being a girl - the fangirls wil not back it. I find Lucy Lu very Lukewarm anyway..

^ source ^

(Where’s that post about majority of fandom not being able to support or ship anything other than cis, straight, white men together?  I need it due to reasons.)

It’s amazing how many fans are like, “OH GAWD NO DROWN ME IN A POOL OF SPOILED MILK BC I THINK I ACTUALLY MIGHT NOT NOT LIKE THIS LIKE OH SWEET HARIBO JESUS SACRIFICE ME FOR MY TREASON BC I ACTUALLY KINDA LIKED THE TRAILER AND I’M NOT SUPPOSED TO AHHH I FEEL MY BODY BEING DRAGGED TO THE DARK SIDE AND UNLIKE THAT LOKI GIF MY BODY IS NOT READY OMG I’M MELLLLTING.”

You like what you’re seeing, you’re willing to give it a chance.  Embrace it.  Accept it.  

This is hilarious.

Yes, okay, fine, if thinking a sexist show that has a trailer full of sexist bullshit and sexist implications and sexist writing is being “pressed” just because I am also a fan of the BBC’s Sherlock, then I am kind of proud of being “pressed.”

I’m embarrassed by people who act like this. And by people who act like Elementary is going to be some wonderful show despite even their trailer being chock full o’ sexism nobody seems willing to talk seriously about.

P.S. Oh yeah, also it’s a fucking glaring rip-off of an existing show which also makes it shit. But really that’s among the least of my objections to this crap. 

pockytardis:

deductism:

scienceofficer:

joan-watson:

NEW - Elementary - 4 min Exclusive Preview uploaded for people who live outside the U.S & are blocked from watching it on youtube…here ya go!

he reminds me of benedict’s sherlock, matt’s doctor and david’s doctor

i am going to watch the fuck out of this

JKA;NDV;AHGAHHHAHHWHAHAHS THIS GUY SIS OF FUNYNY OMG I LOVE HIM

THIS SCRIPT IS BRILLIANT FUCK HE’S SO SASSY I VELO HIM

i’m gonna throw popcorn at anyone still saying this looks like shit because if they’re saying this looks bad they’re looking at it through their stubborn angry bbc goggles

Oh, no, the reason I don’t like this isn’t because I’m “looking at it through […] stubborn angry bbc goggles.”

It’s because the trailer and basic plot are amazingly sexist, their Sherlock is shown to be an obnoxious jerk with no redeeming qualities except his (admittedly nice) accent, and frankly, the writing and acting just aren’t very good.

See, I would have maybe given it a shot. Then they gave us “Joan Watson is a disgraced surgeon who is now a caretaker, literally, to a man who treats her like absolute shit, mistakes her for a maid even after she tells him what her job is, and introduces her as his valet, and she will now spend the remainder of the trailer following him around, doing nothing significant or important to the plot, praising him all the way.”

Which is pretty much exactly what I predicted, months ago, that they would do, and got the same bullshit responses — “oh, you’re just a butthurt Sherlock fan!” Yeah, except I’m right, this is sexist crap, and I’m honestly embarrassed by the number of people who now suddenly want to see this shit. 

joan-watson:

NEW - Elementary - 4 min Exclusive Preview uploaded for people who live outside the U.S & are blocked from watching it on youtube…here ya go!

 

Lovely, it’s even more sexist and bullshit than I thought it would be. Really. Lovely.

Watch if you want to see Lucy Liu follow an insufferable jackass who takes obnoxious to eleven around and praise him for four minutes, while he treats her like dog shit!

brb being incredibly pissed off at everyone involved in the making of this.

(If one person tries to tell me this bullshit isn’t sexist, I’m just going to scream “they literally made her his caretaker” until they vanish from existence.)